I got an email from a woman who said, “Seems this site is all about his pleasure, or at least for the most part. Women enjoy sex just as much as men. We like oral sex performed on us as well as lots of other things. Disappointing to see that this is more about him than her.“
I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of this blog. My guess is she read a few posts and assumed it represented everything I do.
That said, this is a valid issue in both the world and the church, and it’s generally worse in the church. The idea that sex is just for men is not dead, and where that idea is no longer accepted, it has often been replaced with the idea that sex is more for men than for women.
Both the world and the church have taught men to be sexually selfish. That’s not always what is intended, but it’s all too often the result. If you don’t actively fight that pressure, it will impact your sex life with your wife.
Because most women don’t feel the need for release that we feel, we may think it’s okay if she doesn’t orgasm. Some of the time this is true for some women, but it’s never true for some women and not always true for far more. We figure she will speak up if it’s a problem because that’s what we would do. She figures we don’t care about her because that is how she would feel about us if she didn’t care if we climaxed.
I suggest you ask your wife if sex is as good for her as she would like. Ask her what you could do to make it better. And if her answer includes some things that are not about sex, don’t ignore them!
It seems to me that God gave women a greater capacity for sexual pleasure than he gave men. But while our pleasure is easy, hers takes some learning and effort. You can’t make it better for her if she doesn’t care, but be sure you’re ready to do your part if/when she does care. For some ideas on giving her more pleasure, check out the 400 posts tagged with sex4her.
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I know she always orgasms on the few occasions when sex is allowed. She rarely ever allows me to give her oral for two reasons: because she refuses to reciprocate and feels it’s not fair, and because she hates the smell of herself so much that if I give her oral then no amount of face washing will make it go away and all further sexual activity is prevented.
As for communicating about her pleasure, if I ask her questions, she shuts down. She will tell me if it was good for her or not, but won’t talk about any details. She’s not comfortable talking with me about specifics so any conversation is a dead end and makes her upset enough that any “intimacy” from the recent sex is lost. She shuts down and we’re further apart than before. I can’t improve if she won’t talk to me about it. I also have little chance of improvement given the long spans of time between opportunities to practice.
H, you must be married to my wife too! lol My words exactly. I offer my wife oral sex and have told she can have it any times she wants it. She only “lets” me give it to her very rarely, but oddly, she always seems to enjoy it, but then doesn’t want it for a very long time.
She does not like talking about sex and like your wife, shuts down if I try to talk to her. Very frustrating.
I would do anything sexually for her (as long as it wasn’t something super crazy). But, she doesn’t want anything and doesn’t want sex very often.
Isn’t it infuriating when people on the internet seems to go out of their way to misunderstand you?
This blog’s name is “the generous husband” – obviously for men. You have links to the xy code, the generous wife and the marriage bed in the side bar. But this woman comes along and accuses you of not caring about woman’s sexual pleassue. Lady, do you have eyes?!
Why would you go to a blog that’s clearly aimed at a M as ke audience and complete in when it addresses a male audience.
@alchemist – When you have an ax to grind you tend to see things rather narrowly.
It’s a nice platitude but simply objectively false when writ large.
I would lay it down for my wife in just about any way she asked. I would trek downtown with plans to stay gor the day if allowed. She just doesn’t like sex all that much. Or she doesn’t like me all that much beyond the comfortable lifestyle I provide.
That women like sex just as much as men comment just doesn’t survive even the tiniest scrutiny.
A few perhaps, but it is not a significant sample of the population.
@Ron and @H,
This must be true because three makes it a rule. I don’t have an answer, except that maybe we three have to put ourselves in a good position to anticipate. I’m not given many opportunities either, and she always enjoys all of it. But there is always really low desire on her part. I’ve learned this is much different from arousal. If she feels “obligated”, she will join me. Once in the event, she can become aroused, and once aroused, she can enjoy the sex and climax fine, even multiples if she allows me to help her, which I am glad to do.
But then, she doesn’t want to discuss what made it good or how it can be better. She also does not want to repeat the event, for a long while. (Guilt? Giving in to pleasure? Giving up power/control by allowing me to bring her pleasure.) All of them, maybe.
I’ll never know. If there is any effort on my part to find out, to understand, there is angry rage. And no sex… for a long time.
My wife is the same way, she enjoys sex when we have it, but after she orgasms, she says she is “full” and doesn’t want sex for a long time, weeks.
I can relate to much of this.
It’s so frustrating. She spent so many years stonewalling and I spent so many years teaching her that I didn’t think I really deserved more and then hysterectomy and earlier than planned menopause.
In my experience menopause can absolutely nuke an already crappy sex life.
I waver depending on the day whether sticking it out is worth it. We are just too different in this respect. I think the pursuit of a passionate marriage and sex is essential. She thinks it is a nice to have as long as it happens with zero effort on her part.
I spent years pursuing and learning and trying. Generally making myself responsible for things that she is responsible for and that I can’t do for her anyway. The only thing that has calmed the storm in our marriage and my head and heart is when I did the logical thing and gave up on her in this way.
Guitar playing and building are excellent diversions for disappointment.
Goldtop57, I am about the same. I waver too on sticking it out or bailing out. I have ALMOST given up on a good sex life, it takes two to make a relationship work. I am happier too if I don’t think about it, it is easy to dwell on though.
I have hobbies too that keep me busy.
I am not really prone to feeling sorry for myself but this is one area that will lead me to it, if I allow myself to dwell.
Have you read David Schnarch, Corey Allan, or Winifred Reilly? Excellent resources for the HD, disappointed spouse.
Realizing how many hurting marriages makes me so very sad. I don’t know how Paul does it? Listening to hurting and angry people like me all the time…
This is at the top of the list for things I’ll never put up with again. If you won’t do oral or play with toys, pass. Never putting up with that self conscious nonsense again
Mykidsmademedoit, I’ll probably never be single again, but if I was, a decent sex life would have to be a must. I am pretty open with what a good sex life can be, but my new spouse would have to WANT to be sexual and be active in it, not passive. Oral and sex toys would be a must. If she said she wasn’t “really interested in those things”, I would be gone in a second.
@Ron and @mykids, I get the oral sex thing, but I’m curious as to why you say that use of sex toys are a must?
@Tory – I would not see either as a must-have. If a woman said she had no use for either because she came easily from intercourse (which most women can’t do) I’d see no need for those things.
However, being open to those is a decent indication a woman is horribly uptight about sex. And being open about sex is what’s needed.
Well, I guess toys wouldn’t be a must, but being sexual would be. If a woman is single and she doesn’t have toys, pretty good indication she isn’t real sexual. I would never marry a woman that admitted she didn’t masturbate because “she didn’t have to”.
So a woman’s sex drive must look like yours or its not “right”.
You realize that kind of thinking is part of the problem right?
I see it more of a question of rigid sexuality vs. open sexuality.
For example, a rigid sexuality says “I’m only going to do these things, these positions, in these specific circumstances. I may go outside of these boundaries, but it will be rare, and only out of a sense of obligation.”
An open sexuality says “I know what I like, but I’m willing to try something new/different/outside my comfort zone. More than once, and with a positive attitude.”
Exactly Tom. It is being open to sex.
It is not that her sex drive as to look exactly like mine, but it would have to close. It’s not that it is not “right”, just not right for me.
I generally agree with you, in the “not right for me” camp. But, what to do with that information/legitimate choice?
I suppose the only Christian moves are to have profoundly disappointing sex or to stop having sex. The question has been asked and answered. Repeatedly cajoling is neither mature, sexy, or effective.
But, it is degrading to be yoked to and have half-hearted obligatory sex with someone not sexually interested in me. Not quite prostitution but not far off. But, we don’t get this information before signing the contract.
So, what to do?
For me, I just go without sex. Not want I want, not want I think is best for our marriage. I would rate our sex life since we got married until now, 30 years later, about a 3 maybe on a 10 scale.
As far as the cajoling, asking and being turned down, we quit doing quickies for me many years ago. Neither one of us enjoyed it. I just basically do without. I wouldn’t know what to do with a woman that WANTED sex and was sexual, would initiate, gave oral etc.
I am doing more of the just not even pursuing it lately. It really isn’t anything I couldn’t do for myself. We don’t kiss passionately anymore, we have some challenges around PIV, but everything is off the table and has been for awhile.
OBGYN has provided direction/resources to help resolve the PIV issues but, that isn’t being pursued at all which really does rankle. Fundamentally, I view sex as an imperative and she views it as a nice to have as long as everything in her world is perfect and the house is perfect and there are no social media posts to look at, etc….
But, I taught her that I didn’t think I was worth more a very long time ago, so I have a huge share of blame for where we are.
I wish I had never experienced the first four or five years of sex in our marriage. I think this all might be less disappointing.
I think you do a good job Paul. You are a big advocate for woman and for sex to not be only for men. In fact it seems as though you are one of the few men in the Christian blogging universe who does so. I have always appreciated your willingness to acknowledge how both the world and the church have minimized women’s need for sex and orgasm. I wish this women could have read more of your posts she probably has been hurt By teaching that is traditional church messaging but not biblical and your posts could have given her a solid place to find some good biblical advice. Keep up the good work.
@Active Mom – Many thanks for the kind words!
The person who sent that e-mail is clearly wrong. Because you often stick to a topic over the course of several posts, I wonder if she just read a few sequential posts where you weren’t focused on the wife’s pleasure.
Our marriage bed definitely suffered from the “sex is for men” mindset in the past. I’m still working on getting that out of my wife’s mindset. One thing you’ve said several times and I really appreciate is something along the lines of “if she wants it, find a way to get her an orgasm every time”. That has worked so well for us! She now gets more O’s than I do since she’ll get a second one 10% of the time.
Despite that, SHE still seems to not want to embrace her pleasure at times. She insists I finish at every single sexual encounter, but does not require that for herself. She’ll also indicate she’s not interested in a second O when I know it’s easily possible (and after a few minutes of continued PIV will then want it, confirming my suspicions). When queried, she’ll say that she’s worried about the additional time a second O takes…as if that would bother me! She also works to avoid things that are focused on her–for instance taking cunnilingus off the table. In her mind, sex is almost all PIV, PIV, PIV. I think it’s a pseudo purity culture thing, and that focus I think was the main reason we didn’t get her an O for the first 12 yr of marriage. We’re just lucky that simultaneous PIV+vibe is so efficient at getting her the O–I know that doesn’t work for everyone!
Overall, I think we’re slowly getting my wife out of that mindset. The “sex is for men” mindset wasn’t in full force when we first married, but after 2 years or so of no O for her, I think that’s when it got fully engrained. This means I’m fighting 10 yr of so of that thinking!
-Scott
@Scott – Yeah, years without an orgasm teaches a woman a lot of bad things.
Prayers for the ongoing healing of your sex life.
Thanks Paul.
I don’t have much room to complain, as we’re having the highest-quality sex of our lives with nearly the best frequency (only newlywed beats it out). However, I do wander how long it will take to heal roughly a decade of dissatisfaction for her. In another arena (I think it was infidelity), I heard somewhere that it can take roughly half the time of the “bad habit” to correct the damage done. If that’s the case, I’m at about 1 yr into a 5-yr healing process. I do wonder if OS in either direction will ever be allowed again…it’s possible there’s been irreversible damage done in areas like that.
-Scott
Many lessons for men can be drawn from the movie “Belle de jour.” To her doctor husband, Belle comes off as frigid and disinterested in sex. Her eventual escape into prostitution while he is at work reveals otherwise. All women want to be loved, desired, and ravished. Men tend to focus on the ravishing. That said, it is up to the man to get to the woman’s heart and open her up sexually. He cannot expect that she knows how she herself ticks. Thank God for the mystery and challenge.
I hope this is ok to say…
But I show my husband these comments (and others like them) and wave them in his face saying “do you realize how lucky you are and how good you have it???”
Lol. (He usually shoots back, “do you realize how lucky YOU are, that I take care of you and make sure you are satisfied?” )
(Then we both admit that we are lucky) 😜
Bless you both, for your openness with each other and the work you put in to keep things going.
It’s ok to say, of course. Not going to pretend the weaker parts of me feel a little slighted.
@Tory:
Quick question: you’ve indicated that your DH is responsive desire, whereas you I believe are spontaneous desire. Do you ever feel, even slightly, that this will keep you from being truly “satisfied”?
While I can logically evaluate that my wife is responsive desire and also objectively process that her mood is highly dependent on her cycle, I will admit there’s a part of me that feels sad that she will never desire or pursue me like I do her. I feel a craving for my spouse that is something she doesn’t understand and may never feel. As embarrassed and ashamed I am to admit it, I do feel like I’m missing out a little. I think it’s getting better and my wife is slowly sexually blossoming, but I don’t know if I should hold out hope there, especially since everything we have now is the best we’ve ever had.
-Scott
@Scott— yes, if I’m being completely honest, I have times where I’m feeling sorry for myself and think that I will never experience being desired or pursued. As a woman, that is a hard thing to grapple with. We married as virgins, very young, so this is all I’ve ever known. On top of it, blogs such as this one send forth a strong message that all men want a lot of sex, and that hasn’t been my experience. But, does anybody really get 100% the sex life they really want and everything they want? My husband being responsive desire makes him a better lover, because he takes his time and is very sensual since that is what he needs to get in the mood. So there are pros and cons. I try to appreciate the good things and not be too sad about what I don’t have. Hope that helps. It sounds like you and your wife have come a long way, so that’s a win!
@Tory:
Thanks for the honest response. I agree with much of what you said, and the “does anybody really get 100% the sex life they want” part especially rang true.
We also married as virgins, not even having kissed anyone else. We weren’t that young (24), but in some ways that kind of made it worse. By that age, we’d both been through college and seen highly sexual people and their lifestyles. Interestingly, though, my DW showed tons of sexual interest early on (after we dated several months, she even wanted to have intercourse, but I held out until we got married), and that actually carried over into the first year or two of marriage. But 12 yr married without an O is a long time to go, and we both own a share of the blame there. Because of her early attitude, I still think there is hope to get her fire of desire back, and the massive improvements over the last year certainly agree with that. Like you, I’m actually quite content/happy with what we have, even if there are times I’d like to see something else. She’s a great wife and pretty much perfect for me in every way…I wonder if she’s actually a great fit for me in this way too (like you said, the responsive-desire spouse slows us down) and I just haven’t seen it yet?
-Scott