On a recent survey comment, one of you ended with “What is your definition of SEX????” An important question indeed!
I’ve had married men try to convince me they didn’t commit adultery when they clearly did. One fellow ejaculated on her leg during foreplay. Being a gentleman, he offered to do something for her. She declined. I doubt he’d have admitted they “had sex” even if she had allowed him to pleasure her, but he was adamant he had not committed adultery in what did happen. Another fellow said they got in bed to have intercourse, but he was unable to get an erection – for the first time in his life. She spent a good deal of time doing everything she could think of to get him hard, but failed.
Both these men consider their experiences a near miss, with no adultery having occurred. In fact, they told me God protected them by causing their premature ejaculation and erectile difficulty. These men’s desire to avoid being guilty of adultery has shaped their definition of having sex. Others get into trouble because their definition of sex is so limited they are too far along and too aroused to stop when they hit the “this is sex” line.
My definition?
Any penetration is certainly sex. If anyone has a climax, it’s sex. I’d say if either of us touches the other’s genitals significantly, that’s sex. Things other than that I’d call sex play. Not full sex, but certainly not something to be done with anyone other than my wife.
One of the good things about thinking of it this way is we can be sexual with our wife several of many times a day. If sex is not a full journey ending in orgasm then we can enjoy sexuality off and on as we please. We can play, tease, and build desire. We can be sexual when we don’t have time for full sex, and we can both enjoy it. Sex becomes less of an event and more a part of our lives.
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I think the issue isn’t confusion about what sex is; it’s confusion (or denial) about what adultery is. I think PIV is sex, and everything else is a sex act. But they’re trying to say that ONLY sex, or sexual acts, constitute cheating, and that’s not even a little true
I think this hits on my confusion with the survey too. ANY sexual contact at all counts as sex in my mind if it were performed with someone other than the spouse–aka adultery. But in my own marriage, my husband and I could be sexual many times a day, but I don’t “count” that as sex until he has climaxed. For example, we could have PIV sex three times a day every day, but if I stop before he climaxes? I wouldn’t “count” that as having sex because I am not fulfilling his sexual need; in fact I would be torturing him. So in that instance I don’t “count it” unless he climaxes. Does that distinction make sense? I answered the survey in the context of my marriage then and what I count as sex. I guess I need different terms. Yes, it is sex, but I recognize that being sexual isn’t enough in itself to lead to sexual satisfaction. But otherwise, I consider any activity that could lead to orgasm (even if it doesn’t go that far) to be sex. So maybe I need to change my answers if that is what you are looking for.
Ok so I had this whole thing typed out about law and grace and how Grace is a higher standard to live by than the law but I scrapped that and am saying this. Take your logic and try it on yourself first. If those two gents had a wife and she came home and said that she was so relieved that she did not commit adultery with her boss but only gave him a bj. What woild they say. Honey I am so proud of you? Cmon man. Own up to your brokeness. Find the problem. Ask for forgiveness and hope things will be restored someday. Just sayin
Ok so I had this whole thing typed out about law and grace and how Grace is a higher standard to live by than the law but I scrapped that and am saying this. Take your logic and try it on yourself first. If those two gents had a wife and she came home and said that she was so relieved that she did not commit adultery with her boss but only gave him a bj. What woild they say. Honey I am so proud of you? Cmon man. Own up to your brokeness. Find the problem. Ask for forgiveness and hope things will be restored someday. Just sayin
Right?! If my husband came home to me naked in bed with a naked guy, giving him a hand job or bj to try to get him hard, or with semen on my leg, he’d still probably kill the guy, not say, “it’s ok honey, so long as he didn’t penetrate.”
I say even a kiss or grope through clothing, or heavy flirting is cheating. Any desire to be sexual with another person that is acted upon is infidelity. Phone sex. Cyber sex. Dirty letters and emails. Adultery. Looking at another to lust after them is adultery already commited in the heart. You don’t even have to touch them! That’s the Bible!
I agree. Even a kiss would be DEVASTATING to me. That’s not to say that, oh well, we already kissed, so we already committed adultery; we might as well have sex”
Agreed! That’s not to say, though, “Oh well, we kissed, and that’s adultery, so we might as well just have sex.” There are different consequences to different actions even if they all constitute adultery. According to the Bible’s definition, we have ALL committed adultery. But adultery of the mind, which is still sinful and damaging, it does not have the same fallout as adultery of the body.
whlmn58 Spot on! I think these guys has rather prominent double standards!
NeuKar It is a very difficult area to nail down.
What if he likes having intercourse several times in one day and only climaxing the last time? Does that change things? What if after he climaxes, he does it once more for you and does not climax?
The survey was intentionally vague because I wanted what people think. I also wanted to make people thing about it.
This is something that has kind of been rattling around in my head for the past couple of weeks in response to this infographic from a survey done by Sewell and Strassberg http://www.lehmiller.com/blog/2016/1/10/infographic-how-do-college-students-define-sex
It will be interesting to see the results of your survey to see what your Christian (mostly Protestant, it seems) community comes up with.
The thing that really rattles around in my head on this topic is how the question of “what is sex?” gets so intricately tied up with “What is sin?”. I find that my own tendency is to define “sex” along the lines of “what do I consider sin outside of marriage.I’m not sure it is the best way to define it, though.
I find some interesting twists in my own thinking on this. I cannot recall how you had formulated the questions, but I noticed that Sewell and Strassberg kind of made a distinction between “solo masturbation” and “solo masturbation in the presence of another person” which struck me. I would tend to classify “solo masturbation” as “not sex”, but “masturbation in the presence of another presence” as “sex”. As I thought about that more carefully (because, as I said, I made the distinction based on how I want to define sin and not sin), it was interesting how I interpreted it differently for the same activity without and with a witness. I’m not sure what it means, but it has caused me some reflection.
You talk about how this is often used to “justify sin”, and I don’t doubt that it often is about finding justification for sin. On the other hand, I cannot help but look at how Christianity often talks about sexual things (the little look in to St. Augustine’s writings a couple of weeks ago was rather interesting) and tends to “err” on the side of “if in doubt, call it sex and call sex sin.” How does that impact how we define sex (and sin).
In some ways, I like your idea of trying to separate “sex” from “sexuality” or “sex play” or however we want to try to do it. We frequently condemn “the world” (whoever that really is) because they tend to take the morality out of sexuality — sex is neither right nor wrong, it just is. Whatever feels good must be right. And so on. From a couple of other thoughts, I sometimes wonder, though, if it would be easier to talk about “what is sex” if we could, temporarily, at least, separate it from our need to classify it as “sin” or “not sin”. After we have had our conversation about “this is what it means to be sexual, and this is what ‘sex’ really is, and the rest of this is non-sex parts of our sexuality”, without judgement about “sin”, if we would then be in a better position to have the “now that we know what is contained within the “sexuality” box, let’s talk about “sin”.
I really don’t know, but it is an interesting conversation to start, and thank you for tackling it.
I agree that it isn’t a simple conversation, is it? For example, I consider kissing someone other than your spouse to be sin if you are married, but do I believe it is sinful to kiss your fiancé before you get married? I guess I don’t. Like so many things, I don’t think you can draw a line in the sand to say “this is sin but this isn’t,” first because of changing circumstances such as these, but second because when we draw that line we often then push up against it as close as we can without crossing it, and I don’t feel as if that is an attitude that honors God or honors the other person.
Perhaps this is the whole “what is permissible” versus “what is beneficial” debate. For example, I consider a husband masturbating because it is too much work or too risky to initiate sex with his wife to be sinful, but if he is masturbating in order to overcome ED so that he can enhance intimacy with his wife? Or if a wife is preorgasmic and is trying to learn her what works for her? What if in each case the presence of the spouse actually makes it harder to accomplish the goal of learning how their body works? I don’t know that I would call that solo masturbation sinful because the goal is to increase intimacy, not circumvent it.
I think a better question than “what is sin” is “what will honor God right now.” If God designed sex to bond us together, does this activity bond us or divide us? Solo masturbation is sex with yourself, and more often than not is not with the intention of bonding to your spouse, but I am not comfortable with the blanket statement that all solo masturbation is sinful for reasons listed above.
I think I want to change my answers on your survey now, Paul. Ha. Manual sex (solo or mutual), oral sex, PIV sex… It’s all sex. I just don’t “count” it as a satisfying sexual encounter unless my husband orgasms. And again, the consequences of each can be different. I married as a “technical virgin,” and although I made mistakes regarding manual sex and oral sex prior to marriage, I am still thankful that I saved PIV sex for marriage.
Oops, brain fart. I meant PE, not ED.
MrShorty I saw that article a few days after I wrote this, but before it had published. It’s an interesting look at the issue because biblical morality is not a significant factor for most of those who were asked. It shows sex being about the outcome, not the action.
I think you are onto something about letting sin confuse the issue. Settle sex first, then talk about sex. I like it.
Masturbation is another confusing issue. We tend to bind it to porn or sinful fantasy and act as if it can never be separate from those things. On the other hand, there are men and women who have never had sex with their spouse without having someone else in their mind as they do it.
Mostly we need for more discussion, which has always been difficult. Slowly that is changing.
NeuKar Perhaps those are better questions. One of the problems I see with something like “what is sin” vs “what will honor God” is that we tend to force the subject under discussion into one side or the other — especially with questions around sexuality. I think there is a “nebulous middle ground” where activities and choices are neither “honoring God”, or are they “sinful/offensive to God”. Or, for something like masturbation, is it necessarily the bipolar “either it is bonding and unity the couple or it is dividing the couple”? Is it possible for some sexual activities to be neither bonding nor dividing? If there is a neutral middle ground, how shall we navigate it?
MrShorty NeuKar I’ve always seen masturbation as something less than any sex act one has with another person. It’s the physical without the emotional or relational aspects. It’s like a feeding tube rather than eating a nice meal with friends. The feeding tube takes care of a physical need, but nothing more.
I realise not everyone sees or experiences it this way, which makes it difficult.
themarriagebed MrShorty NeuKar I can see the logic and reasoning there. What if, instead of a “feeding tube” (which brings up images of “deathbeds” and “desparation” and “last resorts” and “anything but if at all possible”, what if masturbation’s meaning and significance is more like dropping $1 into a vending machine at 3 in the afternoon and getting twinkies or chips or donuts or <insert favorite mid-afternoon snack here>? Sometimes as a snack to bridge the gap between lunch and dinner, and sometimes just because it sounds good and there’s nothing wrong with a snack.
I don’t think I know the answer, because, as I noted above, sometimes it is really difficult with sexual topics like this to be able to describe the behavior without also “moralizing” about the behavior. The analogy I propose here does not really leave much room for serious moralizing, which, if I am truly honest, sits a little uncomfortably inside of me, because I am so used to wanting to moralize (often in the “don’t do it” direction) sexual behaviors.
MrShorty themarriagebed NeuKar For me the snack analogy is poor because it’s a lot closer to the real thing.
When I was a teen, masturbation was the ultimate. Then I learned about sex with a woman I love, and I saw masturbation for what it was – a hollow physical shell devoid of the passion and emotion sex should be.
[…] over at The Generous Husband recently wrote a post entitled Defining Sex and it got me thinking. Now, he was looking for a straight, all purpose definition of sex. […]
themarriagebed MrShorty NeuKar Can I press you on this? Realizing that any analogy is imperfect, a couple of thoughts:
1) This seems to fit your own experience, and, yet, as I read what sexologists (and your own “masturbation in marriage survey”, that I was recently reminded of on your facebook feed) say they find, your experience of abandoning masturbation after marriage is less common. So, when you say that, “For me the snack analogy is poor”, is this a reflection of your own experience, or do you see this as more than that?
2) Rather than a feeding tube, could your own experience be more like a baby’s bottle or baby food rather than the “life support” image of a feeding tube. I have seen some describe masturbation as “our first or original sexuality”. As relationships are formed (and covenants made through marriage), we “grow” sexually into partnered sexual activities. I suppose one thing this version calls into question is whether or not it is necessary or expected to abandon the “baby food” after we move on to more substantial foods or not.
If you don’t feel that this is too far to push the topic, I would appreciate your thoughts.
themarriagebed MrShorty NeuKar Can I press you on this? Realizing that any analogy is imperfect, a couple of thoughts:
1) This seems to fit your own experience, and, yet, as I read what sexologists (and your own “masturbation in marriage survey”, that I was recently reminded of on your facebook feed) say they find, your experience of abandoning masturbation after marriage is less common. So, when you say that, “For me the snack analogy is poor”, is this a reflection of your own experience, or do you see this as more than that?
2) Rather than a feeding tube, could your own experience be more like a baby’s bottle or baby food rather than the “life support” image of a feeding tube. I have seen some describe masturbation as “our first or original sexuality”. As relationships are formed (and covenants made through marriage), we “grow” sexually into partnered sexual activities. I suppose one thing this version calls into question is whether or not it is necessary or expected to abandon the “baby food” after we move on to more substantial foods or not.
If you don’t feel that this is too far to push the topic, I would appreciate your thoughts.
Adultery has the same root as the word adulter, which is to taint or pollute something with a foreign substance. If you taint your marriage by bringing somebody else into the realm of those thing that belong solely to husband and wife, you adulter your marriage with disloyalty ie: you commit adultery.
You can do that without having penetrative intercourse and I’m sure if those men found out their wife was doing the same thing with some other man that their other woman was doing with them, they would not be shrugging it off as nothing. People don’t want to see themselves as the bad guy however so they do whatever they can, even lie to themselves, to protect their ego. Someday reality will catch up with them.
Adultery has the same root as the word adulter, which is to taint or pollute something with a foreign substance. If you taint your marriage by bringing somebody else into the realm of those thing that belong solely to husband and wife, you adulter your marriage with disloyalty ie: you commit adultery.
You can do that without having penetrative intercourse and I’m sure if those men found out their wife was doing the same thing with some other man that their other woman was doing with them, they would not be shrugging it off as nothing. People don’t want to see themselves as the bad guy however so they do whatever they can, even lie to themselves, to protect their ego. Someday reality will catch up with them.
MrShorty My personal experience doesn’t seem to be the norm. I think how I feel should be the norm, or, at least, it would be good if it were. No idea why I’m different, or maybe everyone else is different?
I started masturbating early – a couple of years before puberty. When the hormones kicked in I did it A LOTa lot. I knew how to make it really good and I enjoyed it a great deal.
HOWEVER, the first time my then future wife used her hand on me it was better than anything I’d ever done for myself. This was not because she had great skill, she had plenty to learn. It was so fantastic because it was HER hand, the hand of the woman I loved so much we were getting married. Physically it was probably rather poor, but it added other dimensions I’d never experienced before and the total was so far beyond anything I’d ever felt before. And that was just her hand. When we moved on to intercourse it totally blew my mind.
Baby food might be a good fit. I have no desire for baby food now. But if I were hungry enough I’d eat it. Since I got married, masturbation has been very rare. Lori always knew – and more often than not suggested it. Most of it was when we were apart, and a bit early on when she was really struggling with her past abuse and was unable to deal with sex for a period of time beyond what she knew was healthy for me.
When I have done it myself since marriage, it was not nearly as great as I remember it being when I was single. I do it because I need release, period. There is pleasure, but it’s minor and I don’t feel like doing anything to try to make it greater. It’s a lot like going to the bathroom when you have needed to go for a long time – the pleasure comes from ending the pressure.
Is masturbation our first sexuality? I suppose, but it feels to me that elevates it to a position beyond what it really is. When it was all I knew it was great. When I learned what God intended sex to be masturbation lost its appeal. As I said, it became an empty shell devoid of the emotional, mental, relational pleasures of sex. It was more a painful reminder of what I was missing than an enjoyable act. I tended to put it off past what was wise for that very reason. If I had it to do over I’d masturbate somewhat more often because I know it made me easier for Lori to live with me when I didn’t let it go too long. I also think it would have made it easier for her to deal with her stuff had she felt less pressured.
When I read about men who still long to masturbate. or those who say it’s a different kind of pleasure they still enjoy, I just don’t get it. I wonder if they have never had sex the way God intended. How could they have had the real thing and still want the empty wrapper? I just don’t get it.
Is that at all what you were asking?
MrShorty My personal experience doesn’t seem to be the norm. I think how I feel should be the norm, or, at least, it would be good if it were. No idea why I’m different, or maybe everyone else is different?
I started masturbating early – a couple of years before puberty. When the hormones kicked in I did it A LOTa lot. I knew how to make it really good and I enjoyed it a great deal.
HOWEVER, the first time my then future wife used her hand on me it was better than anything I’d ever done for myself. This was not because she had great skill, she had plenty to learn. It was so fantastic because it was HER hand, the hand of the woman I loved so much we were getting married. Physically it was probably rather poor, but it added other dimensions I’d never experienced before and the total was so far beyond anything I’d ever felt before. And that was just her hand. When we moved on to intercourse it totally blew my mind.
Baby food might be a good fit. I have no desire for baby food now. But if I were hungry enough I’d eat it. Since I got married, masturbation has been very rare. Lori always knew – and more often than not suggested it. Most of it was when we were apart, and a bit early on when she was really struggling with her past abuse and was unable to deal with sex for a period of time beyond what she knew was healthy for me.
When I have done it myself since marriage, it was not nearly as great as I remember it being when I was single. I do it because I need release, period. There is pleasure, but it’s minor and I don’t feel like doing anything to try to make it greater. It’s a lot like going to the bathroom when you have needed to go for a long time – the pleasure comes from ending the pressure.
Is masturbation our first sexuality? I suppose, but it feels to me that elevates it to a position beyond what it really is. When it was all I knew it was great. When I learned what God intended sex to be masturbation lost its appeal. As I said, it became an empty shell devoid of the emotional, mental, relational pleasures of sex. It was more a painful reminder of what I was missing than an enjoyable act. I tended to put it off past what was wise for that very reason. If I had it to do over I’d masturbate somewhat more often because I know it made me easier for Lori to live with me when I didn’t let it go too long. I also think it would have made it easier for her to deal with her stuff had she felt less pressured.
When I read about men who still long to masturbate. or those who say it’s a different kind of pleasure they still enjoy, I just don’t get it. I wonder if they have never had sex the way God intended. How could they have had the real thing and still want the empty wrapper? I just don’t get it.
Is that at all what you were asking?
[…] over at The Generous Husband recently wrote a post entitled Defining Sex and it got me thinking. Now, he was looking for a straight, all purpose definition of sex. […]