I had an email recently thanking me for not having the common “marriage ministry philosophy” that the man is wrong because he is a beast who needs to be tamed. The specific comment was about sex, but it made me think of a bigger problem I see in parts of the marriage ministry world; the idea the man is always wrong and if he would just get it right, his marriage would be fine. The corollary to this is anything a wife is doing wrong is his fault, and as soon as he gets it together, she will immediately change.
I know it sounds crazy, and anything but biblical, but it’s out there. I went several rounds with a fellow who teaches this, and has a book which says the same thing. The reason this couple teaches this is their marriage was this way; his changing did fix everything. The thing is, not every marriage is like their marriage. In fact, I would say very few are. Occasionally it’s almost entirely the man, occasionally it’s almost entirely the woman. Most of the time, they each have things that need to be dealt with. Any change either spouse makes may precipitate change by the other, but it does not guarantee the spouse will change. What’s more, if they do change, it may not be for the better. If the husband is the vast majority of the problem, a book about the husband being the problem will help. If both have things to deal with, a book that blames all marriage issues on him won’t help, and will likely make things worse. If the wife is the vast majority of the problem, a book that puts it all on him will make things much worse!
The “it’s always the man’s fault” approach is a result of the “one size fits all” method of dealing with things. I’ve seen well-meaning people do a lot of harm because they assume everyone is like they are, or were, and everyone’s problems are the same as theirs. It would make things easy, but it’s not true! Stay away from anyone who has one size fits all answers for marriage difficulties. Same for anyone who has a “guaranteed fix”. These things will work for some, but not for all, and they will make things worse for many.
By the way, this applies to anything I say. Often I give a bit of advice that will work for most, but very few things are universally true in the area of marriage. I’d say 10% to 20% of what I share here I don’t do in my own marriage because it wouldn’t work or isn’t the best option. My wife is unique, as am I, which makes our marriage unique. In many areas, we are “average” and common solutions work well. However, like all couples, there are places where we’re not normal, and the normal solutions won’t work, or won’t work well.
The bottom line: You must be a student of your wife. If you’re not sure about something, try it gently, and see how it goes. Just because something worked for another couple doesn’t mean it will work for you. Even more importantly, just because something did not work for you does not mean there’s no solution.
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Are you willing to give the name of the “marriage problems are almost all the fault of husbands” book? Did the author take your constructive criticism well, and did he agree that because this was his problem he was able to write a book which is helpful to some (but not all) marriages?
Levi – I’ve had the “one size does NOT fit all” with several marriage ministers of the last dozen years. Some heard me, some did not. Some have moved away from OSFA, some have not.
I think the solution to OSFA thinking is not for me to out someone, but for many to do what Tony did. It is the multitude of voices, and voices not seen as responding to a battle cry, that will change someone’s thinking.
I’m also aware of how easy it is to fall into the trap of OSFA. I look at things a wrote ten years ago and see bits of it. I’m sure some still shows up today. My effort to avoid this focuses on hearing many, many voices both of those who minster to couples and couples who have found solutions. The more aware I am of the diversity, the better.
Thank you – this attitude does seem to be pervasive in the Christian community. Fireproof, Mark Driscoll’s constant “man up” drumbeating, etc. Women are just as capable of screwing up and hurting a marriage. Yes, men are called to lead the marriage, but that doesn’t mean the wife is absolved of her responsibilities as well.
Rico – I’d not thought of Fireproof as part of that. I can see how it might be, but I think it does a fairly good job of identifying the situation in which it will work well. And, in the movie the father tell his son that he, the man, received this treatment from his wife. Additionally, the man is not shown as the only problem, but rather as the one who decided to do something about it.
While the movie shows the man doing the heavy lifting, the Love Dare book is offered for both men or women. In part the book is about addressing what one has done wrong, but it’s also about rebuilding a loving marriage. The latter does not place blame, but rather says either husband or wife can take action that may result in a total change in the marriage.
As to Mark, I will need to do more study. I’ve heard what you are saying, but have not seen it in what little I’ve read and heard. I sounds like he figured out that he was wrong in some significant areas, and that he made important changes. If he is painting all men with that, it’s a problem.
Paul
With regards Mark Driscoll, you can easily see the sifference between how he speaks in his sermons in his series on ! and 2 Peter, “Marriage and Women” and “Marriage and Men”. The former is encouragement, the latter is almost a diatribe and rant to “man up”.
On examining “Fireproof” in the first conflict scene between Caleb and Katharine, all we learn is that she is denying him sex and he is looking at porn on his computer. Only one of her friends is willing to warn her about her emotional affair and all of the other of her friends are egging her on to get a divorce even though she does not appear to have biblical grounds for one.
The entire film seems to major on Caleb not being a good husband to Katharine, but there was little criticism of her leaving her marriage for no good reason.
I believe I know who he is talking about as I had a run-in with the same fellow.
I reviewed his e-book on Amazon and he went off on my about how I was not willing to give him my wife’s contact information, how I had no accountability, etc.
I reminded him that I had already told him my two best friends are ministers who hold me accountable, and how if he couldn’t even be trusted to truthfully relate simple details, that it would be difficult to trust him with something as serious as my marriage.
I think J (of J&K, that’s as far as I’ll go saying who it is) projects his faults upon everyone he sees.
I should probably thank you as well. While I’m frequently critical, suggesting that at times you suggest men are largely the problem, I also believe that you don’t hold on to that truth.
While we may disagree on the numbers of men and women involved in affairs, (for every man, there is at least one woman willing to go along, and vice versa, meaning the participation rate for each gender is essentially the same) I don’t think you subscribe to the views held by J, whom I believe you refer to above.
Bottom line, thanks for what you are doing. If there were more men and women in churches like you and your wife, perhaps we would see the divorce rate among those who claim to be Christians lower than the rate of society in general.
Instead, I think churches are filled with more who subscribe to the view that if something is wrong, it’s the man’s fault.
My anecdote, which I freely share is that my pastor, when presented with my ex-wife’s affair, asked me what I did to force her to have an affair. Essentially what you describe, blaming the husband for the wife’s bad behavior.
We don’t accept this sort of blame shift when it comes from a man abusing his wife, so why would we then accept the blame shift when we blame the husband for the wife’s bad behavior.
We shouldn’t.
I challenge folks to compare and contrast their Mother’s Day and Father’s Day sermons. I suspect you’ll see all sorts of sermons, articles, etc on how mothers are wonderful, etc.
On Father’s Day, you’ll see the same articles (wrongly) suggesting that men are not there, that they need to step it up.
When you hear such an article, ask them who is breaking up the family more? Do more men, or more women file for divorce?
Since men and women are no better or no worse than one another, we are all sinners, there is no basis for the argument that men behave more badly.
The argument that the reason that more women file for divorce than men is because men are to blame is another example of that same “blame men” blame shift.
If we are who we say we are, believers in Christ, hungry for the truth, we must reject the lies in such blame shifts.
I’m not saying men are blameless. I am saying that men are no worse than women when it comes to relationships. Men are as well equipped to carry out their ordained roles in marriage as are women.
Men nor women are not better, nor worse than one another when it comes to relationships.
They may not have the same strengths, but if they did, one would be redundant.
So that final lie that blames men must also be put to death. Men are as well equipped for marriage as are women.
They may not be equipped to do the same things. But then again, I don’t think they are called to do the same things.
It’s time we stopped measuring men by an inappropriate standard. Much of what passes for marriage advice and counsel today is just that, measuring men by a wholly inappropriate standard.
Tony – I think “What might you have done to contribute to this problem” is ALWAYS a valid and necessary question, but it’s only a part of the issue and never the primary part.
Too many default to “It’s his fault” and either won’t look at the wife, or won’t let him off the hook even if she is clearly the primary problem.
I wonder if part of the reason for this is that the average church is now about 2/3 female?
Had he asked that question, it would be one thing. Or had he agreed to try to get her into the office to tell from her perspective, that would have been fine too.
The question was, what did you do to FORCE her to have an affair. Not what did I do to contribute to the problem.
Which is simply evidence of that OSFA lie that way too many buy.
Besides, who forces their spouse to sin? When someone comes to you and says their spouse is in sin and hurting you and the family you don’t ask them what you did to have them hurt you.
You would ask that same question of an abuse victim. An adulterous affair is as abusive as anything else one might consider. Dr Willard Harley equates the impact of an affair on the betrayed spouse to that of being raped or losing a loved one to death.
Would you ask someone what they did to force their attacker to rape them? Of course not. So why ask a betrayed husband what he did to force his wife to have an affair?
I do think you are on to something about the church. After all, the only pictures you see of Jesus in the typical church are the “Breck Girl” Jesus with perfect hair, blue eyes, etc.
I think Jesus lived with a bunch of guys. So he’s probably more like a character on Band of Brothers than he would be the images you see portrayed in most churches.
I don’t know many guys who will be drawn to the Fabio or Breck Girl Jesus images.
Late to the party but…
“I wonder if part of the reason for this is that the average church is now about 2/3 female?”
YES.
The incremental feminization of Christendom is only the inevitable result of society’s downhill slide into decay. For decades men have been increasingly marginalized as irrelevant, beyond their duties as sperm donation and bill payments. Now we’re becoming villains just for bearing XY. So what we see happening in the so-called “church” should come as no surprise to anyone with sense to follow the trends. Many people told us in the ’70s that this is what would happen. Few listened.
Scapegoated men and sensible women are tired of being barked at by politicized infidel “ministers” and so are abandoning mainline churches and parachurch orgs in droves. As well they should. Their places in the pews either remain empty or are being occupied by heathens for whom church is now just another confimation channel for their ideological or political religion. Churches are becoming “safe spaces” in direct proportion to their increasing godlessness. So it’s only a matter of time before what’s left of Christendom, at least in the West, becomes thoroughly dominated by females and homosexuals as men realize there’s nothing in it for them but being corporately blamed for one sin or other, regardless of their personal guilt or lack of it.
Just as the Left is now trying to convince all white people that they are corporately guilty of every sin against minorities ever committed, the same is already happening to men in what’s called “the church.” The final trainwreck, which happens soon, truly will be something to behold.
I am NOT one of the currently fashionable, purportedly enlightened red pill woman haters. What I hate is how so many professing Christian women have been so thoroughly deceived that they can no longer listen to reason, not even from the word of God, and have swallowed so many gigantic lies.
@RonB – Of course the church is primarily female because men keep leaving. So it’s our fault.
No, it is not men’s fault.
It’s the fault of feckless or compromised “leaders” who maintained authority while refusing to take a stand against the infilatration they’d been warned was coming, or even cooperating with it when it arrived. So after finally picking up on the fact they were now considered the source of all problems, men didn’t so much leave as realize they were being forced out. They were no longer needed nor wanted.
They didn’t change. Their churches did.
@RonB – When something you love is being destroyed you can stay and fight for it, find it somewhere else, or just walk away. If you walk away, you are partly to blame for what happens after you leave.
I’ve attended a number of churches that are not as you seem to think churches are. I’m not denying some are as you say, but it’s not all. Find one that is doing it right and get involved.
I don’t wish to quarrel as this is a very serious problem…but it’s very strange that you keep blaming men for not fighting.
Do you not see how thoroughly they were disarmed first?
You keep saying they should have fought, but fight with what?
Many of them left because the word of God was (obviously) no longer honored or even believed in their churches. Too many ears were turned away unto myths, too many minds taken captive. That left these men no weapon to fight WITH.
Under that circumstance they would be fools to stay. In fact, what does the apostle Paul instruct all believers to do after the second third ignored biblical reproof of heretics?
HAVE NOTHING MORE TO DO WITH THEM.
So by departing, these men were far more obedient to Christ than if they uselessly beat their heads against a wall THAT WILL NO LONGER ENDURE THE WORD OF GOD.
Please cease blaming these men. They are the victims.
Thank you.
@RonB – Thing is, the changes you’re discussing don’t happen overnight. Where we the men when things were starting to go wrong? Did they speak up? If so, then you’re assessment is valid. If not, they allowed it.
And as I’ve sais there are churches that do it wrong. And the solution to that is to find one that does it right and get involved.
I don’t think saying they “allowed” is necessarily fair.
For one thing, error is often very subtle as are the wolves who introduce it. They know how to take down a church if that’s what they have a mind to do. They know it takes time, at least in a sound church (one that’s already weak, they can make quick work of it).
Second, women being (on the whole) more succeptible to deception, what happens when wolves subtly introduce lies SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO TARGET WOMEN? Easy…the women who are going to swallow it will do so quickly — more quickly than the men were too busy providing for families to notice slight trends downward that may have taken months or years to show themselves…or were too unskilled and undiscerning in the word…or just too lazy. Any or all could be the reason where men (and women!) did fail, and that would be their fault. That we can agree on.
So do we blame men for not noticing in time? Yes — if in fact they didn’t. For that they can be faulted, as can all the women. There will be no excuse at the Judgment Seat for ANY believer being defrauded by false teaching, whether the victim is a man or woman.
But keep in mind: error is effective because it’s always attractive. Even IF the heresy was noticed early, raising a warning does not mean a congregation will listened…look at how many warnings Israel ignored from her own watchmen and prophets. People in these churches may well have embraced the lie in any event.
But one thing is for sure: exiting a church that has doctrinally died and is beyond saving is the biblical thing to do.
@RonB – No argument with your last sentence.
The problem is the apathy and passivity that lead up to that. The Bible tells us to be vigilant. But we have turned church into a spectator sport, and we don’t do our part.
Early in my marriage my wife and I decided we needed counseling. We went to a “Christian counselor” who helped us address very useful topics like me not fully communicating my feelings and me not touching my wife in non-sexual situations. Since my wife would orgasm nearly every time we made love, she was normal and we didn’t need to address any of her “areas”.
Consequently, 20 years have passed and all that time, if I voiced a concern about lack of sex, for instance, it was my fault. Every time it was my fault. Until I grew up and gave her everything she always asked for, backrubs, non sexual touch and all the communication she could stand, but saw no improvement in our sex life. At that point I called her out and she admitted the lack of sex has always been her and not dependent on my actions or behavior.
The bad counsel we received as newlyweds led us down the wrong path for 20 years and nearly cost us our marriage.
Amen, Bryan. Nothing I have ever done for my wife has ever turned her on to me. Pay off the house – no celebration. Build the side fence. No celebration. Build the back fence after Hurricane Ike. No celebration. Have a birthday. No celebration. Coming home after an absence. No celebration. Go to dinner. No celebration. Go to a movie. No celebration. Valentine’s Day with flowers and a nice card. No celebration. Long vacation trip to the destination of her choice. No celebration.
“Again?” “Aren’t you done yet?” “You KNOW that life happened yesterday and I’m too tired!” “You KNOW that life happened today and I’m too tired!” “You KNOW that life is going to happen tomorrow and I’ve got to be rested for it!”
She began weaning me from kisses almost from the end of the wedding ceremony. I think she thought I wouldn’t notice. It’s clear to me now that part of her plan was to have me done with sex by our fifth anniversary. It’s hard to excite a woman without kisses or the encouragement of her letting you know where she likes to be touched.
She had these lies (about me) why she wouldn’t kiss me and then one day I heard her tell her mother that she never had like “those wet kisses”. Well, she gave me plenty of them while we were dating.
She has turned me down a thousand times and then asks, “Why don’t you ever initiate?”
She is a lying, controlling, contentious woman. If I do or plan something without her suggesting it first, it doesn’t fly.
If the DA accused her of loving me, there wouldn’t be enough evidence to get an indictment from a grand jury, much less a conviction.
This could get longer but the idea is that she has these rigid ideas and she is not about to accommodate me by changing, else I win.
Bryan – Ah yes, the ever popular “her orgasm proves she’s fine”. I know plenty who believe this, including a fair number of husbands. The reality is orgasm can happen even when a woman does not want it, if sufficient stimulation is provided for enough time.
The other error I see is that there was no imparting of the idea that “this is what’s needed now, but it’s not the answer for the rest of your marriage.” Even if you wife did not have anything significant to deal with at that time, she would not go her entire life without things she needs to work on!
Paul,
You totally hit on a point that I think a lot of guys don’t seem to get. You said “The bottom line is that you must be a student of your bride.” I would posit a slightly different level of interest, since some of us learned to get through school minimal effort because it came easy for us…
I would say stalk your wife…in love! :) I know this sounds creepy at first, but as Christians we should be used to redeeming terms the world has twisted into something ugly, like submission…but I digress.
Think about how much effort a stalker puts into knowing their target; and if our wife is to be our most important earthly relationship then can’t we put as much effort into knowing our wives to whom we intend nothing but love, tenderness, and imaging Jesus Christ to?
I’ll admit that when I first heard of this idea I was like “Am I supposed to follow her to the gym and hide out?”
No, but maybe it would behoove me to know when she usually goes to the gym so maybe one day I could arrive home and leave her “surprise flowers”.
Bottom Line…the better you know your wife, the better you can lover your wife. And I’m pretty sure that the bible doesn’t ask us men to do that. It commands us…
DaveR – I understand your point, and I like it.
Just to add a couple more cents to the topic (although I don’t know if it will add any more sense…) :) ….
My wife and I counsel together and we have found that I am often harder on the guys and she is often harder on the girls, both because we recognize cop-outs when we see them. So we each try to hold our gender to a higher standard and understand individualized, as well as shared, responsibility.
My reasoning for holding the guys to the higher standard is we are told to love as Jesus loved, and the ladies are not held to such a standard. I accept that as a challenge and a responsibility.
That may seem a bit OSFA for some, but it’s a starting place for us in joint counseling, and has worked well for many couples.
Just another $0.02,
Nathan
Nathan – I think we either hold our gender to a higher standard, or we tend to give them a pass. The former certainly seems like a better choice. In a situation like you describe, with both being held to a high standard by a member of their own sex, it works. Of everyone does it to one spouse, and gives the other a pass, that’s going to cause problems.
As to a higher standard for men based on what we are called to vs what our wives are called to, I agree. My example is Jesus, and I won’t ever meet that. Her example is the church, and that’s not always as high a bar as we’d like it to be!
(BTW, great to hear from you!)
Well said, Paul! I pray we raise the bar!
BTW, though I comment rarely, I read daily and refer others often. Thanks for your tremendous work for the kingdom!
You’re incorrect. If she’s a member of the body of Christ, she too is called to be Christ-like. In Christ there’s neither male or female. In the marriage both have different roles, but as followers of Christ, God is no respecter of person.
Not being a counsellor, but having been a counsellee, I would want to know on what basis it is helpful to give one gender or the other a higher standard to meet. Both husbands and wives have requirements of Scripture to meet. If one party does not meet that requirement, that does not give the other party a fee pass to fail to meet their requirement somewhere else. My understanding is that i am responsible for my failures and my wife is responsible for hers when we arrive at that heavenly appraisal meeting.
The table on Dalrock’s posting Reframing Christian Marriage has an interesting view of how some Christian men see the teaching in the Church.
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/reframing-christian-marriage/
Fred, for me it’s about individual accountability. For a man to take his rightful role in spiritual headship, he also has to take his necessary responsibility. It’s one of those “the buck stops here” kind of things. The scriptures give examples of higher responsibility: “To whom much is given, much is required…Let not many of you become teachers knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.” And I go back to the statement of the man being compared to Christ and the woman being compared to the church. That seems to imply a higher standard. But again, for me and my wife in our counseling of others, we each hold the same-gender counselee to the Scriptural standard.
As for Dalrock, I read the link and found it interesting. While I’ve seen point 1 being promoted at times (Five Love Languages, His Needs/Her Needs, etc), I’ve not seen points 2 or 3 advanced by those writers or by healthy church leaders. Definitely not something my wife and I ascribe to or promote. Again, just my $0.02.
Hi Nathan
Thanks for the thought-out reply. The church is required to follow Christ and those parts that do not are described as sects or heretics. If we live in a society where a woman will not follow the lead of her husband, can she really be described as a Christian wife or should we use some other word?
I know that many of the guys who post on Dalrock have been divorced for reasons that they believe are not biblical by wives who claim to be Christian. There ae forums on the web which claim to be Christian where, unlike the marriage bed, some of the female posters are openly direspectful of their husbands (one calls her husband butt head) and where postings akin to “I’m unhappy. I don’t care what the Bible says. I’m going to divorce him” are met with encouragement to divorce and not a reminder to look at Scripture.
Dalrock’s does have an agenda: to make people realise that US Divorce laws are not compatible with marriage as a life-long partnership between one man and one woman and that poor teaching in the church, and in particular refusal by preachers to admonish women abut their neglect of marriage gives the present legal environment moral legitimacy.
@UK Fred I agree with you. I think that the premise of the movie was to emphasize that the man is the head. But the Woman was sinful during the entire movie, which was never really dealt with. She wanted a divorce and already had an emotional affair with the doctor. But only one person called her out on that. Seems one sided as it’s always the man’s fault no matter what. Even with him looking at the porn, she could have edified him by trying to help him with that addiction. But she did the opposite which would lead to him being further away from her.
Both man and woman are commanded to be Christ-like. God is no respecter of person. The Bible commands the wife to love her husband and children. God created the woman because of man and to be his helpmate. In Christ there’s neither make or female. In a marriage both play different roles, but we are all called to be imitators of Jesus.
What John said below in 2017. Listen to that man, he’s correct.
Husband and wife roles aside, MEN and WOMEN are either co-equal in Christ (as Paul said we are), each with equal accountability to the Lord for his or her own walk…OR…you decide to follow a dying culture and hold women to a lower standard of conduct without admitting that’s what you’re doing.
I’m not your judge. Pick the position you prefer…but first let me remind you that the subtle pedestalization of women is part of what got us in this horrible situation in the first place, and that beast won’t be slain as long as it continues to be fed.